MoneyLion’s maniacal mission of rewiring finance with Dee Choubey

Today, I have the pleasure of sitting down with Dee Choubey, CEO of MoneyLion.

In our chat, Dee takes us on a journey through MoneyLion’s evolution, from its early days as a venture-backed neobank to its current position as a headline fintech stock. With a blend of insight and humor, he shares the company’s shift from a growth-at-all-costs mindset to a more sustainable position focused on distribution, strategy, and morale. Through market ups and downs, Dee underscores the vital role of staying mission-driven and the focused dedication of MoneyLion’s team to empower Americans with better financial tools and literacy.

Looking ahead, Dee paints a vibrant picture of MoneyLion’s future, where AI-driven search capabilities impact how consumers interact with their finances. MoneyLion isn’t the same company it was when I spoke with Dee almost 5 years ago. Since then, the firm has acquired two businesses which now function as an embedded banking product platform and an influencer content studio.

With a comprehensive product catalog, a dynamic consumer marketplace, and trendy media business capabilities, MoneyLion is poised to lead a charge in reshaping the future of finance.

So buckle up for an enlightening and entertaining conversation as we explore the past, present, and future of MoneyLion with the ever-insightful CEO, Dee Choubey.

The big ideas

1. Shift from Growth-At-All-Costs to Sustainable Strategy: “In 2019, we were a venture-backed, serious business. The expectation was continued growth of 100 to 150%. Keep burning. Don’t worry about the burn.”
2. Maniacal Obsession with Mission: “What got us through it was a maniacal obsession with mission. Our mission is to rewire the financial system, to give every American the right tools to make the best financial decisions.”
3. AI-Driven Financial Search Capability: “Our search capability, AI-driven search across all of your financial institutions, you can talk to MoneyLion very soon and say, ‘Hey, what happened this day, last year? This day, two years ago?'”
4. Empowering Americans with Financial Literacy: “Our ability to actually offer at scale, consumers the right financial basket, I think we’re probably further ahead on that than most because we have the consumer in the marketplace.”
5. Focus on Distribution, Strategy, and Morale: “My role has moved from being much more tactical and execution-oriented to much more focused on distribution, strategy, and morale, kind of like the vision and the mission.”
6. Staying Mission-Driven Amid Market Volatility: “It’s always better to multiply your options by a larger number than a lower number. We’ve had our days. At one point, the market cap had fallen below $100 million. But it’s just owning your destiny.”

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Read the full transcript (for TS Pro subscribers)

Dee Choubey: I think the last time we spoke Zack was almost 5 years ago. And it’s funny — 2019 is half a decade ago at this point. You know, we were primarily seen as a neobank. And we were building first direct to consumer lending capabilities. We built a robo advisor on top of that. We built a leading wallet. So the entire ability to offer a debit card today, early paycheck. And that’s really what we were known for in 2008.

We target Middle Americans, hard working Americans, as we called it, right. The consumer business is still incredibly strong in the Southeast of the country, the southern part of the southern states. We have a NASCAR’s sponsorship that really was successful, it propelled us in 2019. And the pandemic, we had a lot of success. And we took the company public in 2021.

The evolution of MoneyLion circa IPO

And what we realized was, we raised hundreds of billions of dollars of capital through going public. And what we didn’t want to do was continue spending, or at least participating, in an arms race to acquire the incremental consumer for the neobank. We really kind of had this introspection that, you know, we were first and foremost a data company. And then we were a technology company — we were really good at building together in one proprietary software stack: a bank, a lender, a robo advisor, a broker dealer, we’re registered with the SEC to be an RA. We have the rails built out for crypto wallets, you know, we offer Bitcoin and Ethereum only, we don’t do anything else.

But again, for the hardworking American, we’ve always viewed that the access is important, just so you can learn. So again, rounding up into bitcoin, especially if you’ve been doing that for three years, you actually end up on pretty well having that access — you’ve done amazing. So we were really good at building those individual pieces and putting in front of a consumer, the fireman, the teacher, the cop, the nurse, the gig economy worker in a delightful way. But we didn’t want to go and start competing on the customer acquisition side with players that just were better funded than we were in a race to the bottom of pricing.

AI arms race

We realized was that the consumer business generates a lot of insights for us and generates a lot of consumer data for us. We’ve been very strong on machine learning and artificial intelligence. We’ve been building artificial intelligence and machine learning primarily into our workflows since we started the business in 2013. In fact, my two co founders, both of them were leading AI guys, and I convinced them to try to bring that into the direct to consumer consumer finance world. So from day one, the way that our systems have been built has been around that can we use everything we know about the consumer to offer the next best product? Or can we use that to create less friction in the onboarding or in the workflow, even in payments? And whenever you lend money, you have to collect the money as well, right? Can we make all of those parts of the value chain for the consumer better using some of these workflows?

The decision to move into marketplace

We realized, because we had so much data, we would rather be a premier marketplace where we can use that data to convince the consumer, to help the consumer pick their next best financial product, because every consumer has a bank account. They may have a 401k. They may have a mortgage. They may have a credit card but it’s really hard to pick the right one. And now with all the advancements that we’re seeing in the data and the application layer, you could actually use simple mathematics, machine learning, if you will, people like you capabilities to actually get the right answer for that person at that moment in time based on what’s what’s happening in their life.

And you can deduce that from bank transactions, you can deduce that from, you know, their utilities, you know, their basket of subscriptions. So we realized that and we said, like, we don’t want to just be in the neobank space, right? We want to be in this marketplace space. So the decision point in front of us was, are we going to spend some of this capital that we just raised in the public markets to go build that out organically? Or are we going to find opportunities to leapfrog and do it faster by acquisitions? It was a traditional build versus buy decision point that we had in 2021.

If you think about first principles, there’s millions of Americans that look for financial products all across the internet. So that that is very, that’s a longtail, there’s there isn’t that much concentration. Of course, you have the search engines but you also have Yahoo Finance, you have CNBC, Fortune, Forbes. Everyone is running SEO and SEM bank, right? You got Credit Karma, NerdWallet, Lending Tree you got, you know, 15 others that are building, really interested in content, right, and that content is being produced every single day. Some of it is really good, but most of it is really bad, right?

We saw an opportunity to kind of leapfrog that strategy, where we were we wanted to have this CAC advantage, the customer acquisition cost advantage by not having to spend hundreds of millions of dollars in, you know, advertising on a stadium or buying, you know, traditional TV ads, but rather, you know, create a flywheel where the consumer business and this marketplace business really sit side by side to create synergies for both sides. So so we had this opportunity to acquire Even Financial, we acquired that business in 2021. And that’s been a game changer for us.

And, of course, we’ve taken that business, and we’ve invested significant amount of, you know, human capital into that business to make it incredibly robust. At this point, there are 1000, you know, B2B clients on that network, both on the supply and the demand side. So when we say supply, it’s basically companies that want to monetize your impressions. If you’ve if you’re running a you know, he’s a publisher, I’m primarily Yeah, okay, publishers, publishers, it can be. It can be content sites can be the credit bureaus, it can be performance marketers, anyone who has impressions on their websites across the internet, or their mobile apps that want to monetize those consumers can with five lines of code — now embed a fully functioning financial services marketplace into their ecosystem. It could be a bank, right? I mean, a lot of them, there’s 3000 – 4000 banks in America, not all of them have a completion strategy. Some of them are really good at a single thing. So then we’re really good at commercial lending. They may not, but they still have consumers, they still have customers that may want a $50,000 personal loan, or they may want $100,000 small business loan. They just don’t provide that service on a first party basis. But they can still monetize that customer relationship by having a marketplace.

So the technology that we have on our marketplace side is it’s a reg tech technology, it’s a compliance technology, if a bank has a 5% rate on their CD or on their savings account. And that rate is being offered across 17 different websites, they don’t want to have a one to many relationship where they’re managing 17 relationships with what people are putting on their website. So they use our technology.

Now to manage just that entire distribution, that entire workflow, right, the compliance guy on at the bank is now able to say, okay, Engine, here’s my rate, and they are assured that that’s exactly what’s now seen across the internet. So, you know, that piece of technology now embedded across the MoneyLion ecosystem, we eat our own dog food. If you if you download the MoneyLion app, and you look at sort of the marketplace, it’s exactly what can be taken through APIs and then put into anyone’s ecosystem and that’s why you know, when we get put into this neobank bucket You know, if you talk to me in a year from now, if we are successful, I think it’ll be, I think it’ll become really clear that we’re not just the neobank, right? We’re the premier marketplace first experience in fintech with extremely robust suite of offerings.

And whatever MoneyLion is doing on a first party basis, we’re now making available through significantly robust API’s for anyone to use. If we do that, right, I think then we’re building a enduring and durable business for the public markets.

Looking at the MoneyLion ecosystem

I think that the DTC neobank can certainly be a huge business, there are good examples of them out there. But if you’re a bank, whether you’re a virtual bank, a crypto bank, neobank, or physical bank, there are only two ways to make money, right? You got to lend money, or you got to provide advice or Asset Management. On the lending side, you know, we really want to position MoneyLion, as a balance sheet-light business, because, you know, again, you have to look at yourself in the mirror and say, what are you really good at? Are we really good at, you know, going and getting billions of dollars or warehouse wanting to buy credit cards? Are we? Are we going to, you know, go raise that capital to do personal loans?

But what we do, what we are very good at is we’re really good at understanding what the consumer has, ability to pay, skill to pay, willingness to pay, we can, you know, go into every single bureau and instantly, you know, do underwriting on those consumers. We are adept at fraud, right. I mean, anytime your digital onboarding and acquisition space, fraud is a major concern. You know, many, many public and private fintech, specialty finance companies are in the graveyards, because they weren’t able to figure out fraud. We have, right, that’s the hard work that we have done. So we want to be able to do that interface layer interacting with millions of consumers in high scale, and then passing off incredibly vetted leads to people that are really built to have that balance sheet. They could be they could be, you know, you can kind of look at our website, and you’ll see large banks, everyone from Citi and all the way down to the large fintechs, all the way down. They are built, they have the apparatus, they have the service, sort of the sales teams, the securitization teams, the warehouse finance teams to go and build that balance sheet. And they’re really good at that. And we want to be good partners with them.

And for the consumer, they want to start their journey with us, because we are now connected with hundreds of different lenders, right? I mean, it’s, it’s you know, and they’re competing for the business of the consumer. So the consumer is always getting market discovery. So instead of going to a bank, if you come through us, you’re at least at least as a, from a consumer perspective, you know, that you’re getting the best rate, and now we’re creating some membership products, where we’ll actually share some of the commissions that we’re getting for the lenders back to the consumer, right. So therefore, if we take this to the natural conclusion, a year from now, if we do this, right, and we’re not there yet, but if we do this right, it becomes irrational for a consumer not to get some of that commission, back to them as cashback.

So that’s how the consumer side that’s where you download the money line up as a consumer. So look, let me start my journey here. If MoneyLion’s first party products, just like Amazon Basics, or Costco or Kirkland products make sense for the consumer great. But we’re agnostic from a business model perspective, because we’re getting paid on the commission from from the third party products as well. And that’s the same proposition I want to take to every single fintech, every single bank, and convince them because back in the day, if you’re a financial institution, you looked at competition as look, look at it in a negative way. I think the opportunity now with the way that technology has progressed, is you can actually still generate revenue and profit from your own customers. You know, taking products from other financial institutions, but still maintain the ability to send them an email. Hey, you know, we saw that you took a loan from bank X or fintech Y, how did it go? We provide the capabilities for that bank to show third party, I was just accounts inside of their ecosystem. Right?

So I mean, again, this is this is why, you know, we just did a announcement with Ernst and Young, that we’re going to be partnering with them to take this capability to a lot of their banking partners, right. So again, and then that’s what they’re seeing is like with with one connectivity, you’re getting compliance, you’re getting KYC, you’re getting onboarding, and you’re getting a completion strategy. Right. So it’s starting to work. I think one of the negatives, that one of the challenges that we have seen over the last year or two in the public markets is that, you know, we get a lot of flack for not understanding the business model, because everyone still thinks of as that neobank That 2019 that you remember us from, and they don’t understand what this enterprise business is, and where we are in the arc of our kind of evolution and what we’re trying to do to really kind of change the quality of revenues that we generate, right? If we’re so do that, that’s really interesting proposition.

Influencer agency as part of the B2B and B2C offering

I think if you go back to 2021, we, you know, we sat there with a whiteboard, and we said, look, what are we good at? What are we not? We’ve been working with this. There’s this Malka Studios in Jersey City in Los Angeles would like to people a lot. But really what they gave us is this ability to tell our own stories, right? You know, what we’re realizing is on the consumer side, whether it’s Gen Z, millennials, and even I think, older millennials, and Gen Xers are now adopting the form factor that the Gen Z segment is using. Everyone wants to search, everyone wants to consume any form of data, in the same way that they consume an Instagram Reel, or a TikTok feed. Financial literacy needs to — no one’s going to go and read a blog.

So what we have done is we’ve partnered with some of the best creative creators, there’s a big vetting process, right, because, you know, as I said, before, we are regulated, right? We’re not allowing creators that are peddling a meme stock or meme coin or an altcoin on our platform. So there’s a little bit of moderation in our feed. But it feels like a TikTok experience, you can comment, you can vote you can. You can have communities, you can talk about Tesla, you can talk about Microsoft, you talk about Nvidia on MoneyLion, you can trade those stocks through our, through our active trading capability. So it feels like a community.

NFL: An example of the power of content creation

But when we see that there are communities that are trending, we’re now able to use our studio to actually go create, you know, first party content. So we partnered with, you know, an NFL player, ex NFL player, Brandon Copeland, to create a whole series around money, right? So this is, again, everything basic from you know, why it’s incredibly silly not to, you know, get 401k matches from your employer, instead of being default off, you want to be default on all the way to starting a business, you know, tax hacks, you know, how to optimize your taxes, and everything in the middle, right.

So we’re now starting to starting to get real traction in our ability to you know, use some of those content creation capabilities. And again, we take the same philosophy is in the marketplace, and we want to use it, but anyone on our marketplace can pull that, that content and display it to their consumers wherever they are, in fact, you know, what will will soon be showing that to the to the markets in terms of new clients that are just coming on to use your content APIs? The whole idea is to own the storytelling capability in financial services, and then offer the multiple capabilities the same way MoneyLion uses it to the banks, to the fintechs to the insurance companies to be able to drive both financial literacy product awareness right. You know, product, we call it the p&l function, product marketing managers, right.

So, in the future you’re not not going to be able to convince consumers just by written content on your website about how a complicated insurance product works or how a wealth management product works, you want to show social proof you want to it needs to be bite sized video format. So we’re now able to go into large wealth managers, large investment banks, large insurance companies, and say you guys have had, you know, decades of content that’s sitting somewhere in a unoptimized way.

GenAI and financial content

We talked about LLMs before this call, right? So so we can take all of their libraries, we can help them put it into an LLM edge. And, you know, and then we can help them create that content feed for their consumers in a way that will take them years and millions of dollars of technology investment. But since we’ve already done it on the front of the MoneyLion side, we can now containerize it, make it into simple workflows for any of these institutions now to take their massive libraries of content, and make that available in a TikTok or Instagram Reels like feed personalized, using some of the capabilities that we bring to the table for their customers.

That’s now really interesting, because we become the network operator, but also inside of a network like a Facebook, right. So if you go buy ads on Facebook, we have a whole team that helps you optimize those ads, with the creative to what the subject line needs to be to what the color of the button needs to be to what the CTA is, they’ll show you seven or eight different variants of it, and it’ll kind of predict that, you know, they’ll simulate how those ads will do, we can now do something very similar for the financial services ecosystem, and especially when they now are interacting on our network on the Engine side. That in a way works like a, like a Facebook marketplace, where you know, you’ll see, you know, Bank A, bank B, bank, C bank, D, but you know, bank D wants to win that consumer, what can they do to their, the way that they show up now we can help, right, we can both help right when they see the screen, but also with their SEO, their SEM, their blog, their feed and everything, right.

So again, that becomes a and then we can bundle that together as a platform fee, generates our ability to say, okay, instead of, you know, this commission business, that you’re gonna pay me on every single lead, why not change that it’s gonna be better for you. But for us, we get recurring revenue for a longer period of time, because we’re not only offering them access to vetted consumers. And that’s what we were talking about earlier, but just our ability to vet these consumers, but also help you optimize your ability to dial up originations. Because ultimately, we’re providing we’re offering the ability for financial institutions to acquire better quality higher intent consumers for their financial products. And that’s the game we’re in right now.

And then, you know, then we can we can go create more content, and then you know, we’re seeing examples, or Malka’s creating the content. And, you know, MoneyLion is not even the sponsor of that content. It’s another participant on our network. But then we’re showing that MoneyLion, we’re showing it elsewhere, we’re managing the YouTube feeds, so on and so forth. So I think that’s how it all kind of comes together. This is this this strategy? You know, we haven’t really been able to get that through to the markets. I think the equity research analysts know that — I think our top investors know it, but I don’t think it’s generally widely known by whether the retail investors or or kind of just generally the industry. But I think that working together, that’s the flywheel.

Success metrics across the network

I think if you look at the total inquiries, you know, we had 205 million inquiries on the network in 2023, where we have a full lead, right? Like they’ve given us everything in terms of every piece of data that’s needed to be vetted for a financial product and financial products have a higher bar than opening a Netflix account. Right. And that was up from 65 million the year before. Right? So really good gross mix. Yeah.

I think, again, on the supply side, you know, why wouldn’t you add these five lines of code into your website, like, you know, there is a, there’s very little upfront commitment to do it. Now, we want to change that over time with more of these kind of platform fees where, you know, we lock in people with, you know, longer term deals, but right now, there is no cost to a publisher to add us add add Engine into their websites, the consumer business continues to do its own marketing. So think of the consumer business as its own publisher. Right. So we’re, we’re our own publisher. And that business is also now generating a lot of eyeballs for the for the marketplace. And when when MoneyLion is the supplier, that’s really where a lot of our growth is coming from, because we can do a lot more checks on the consumer, KYC AML, BSA, you know, link your bank accounts. So we we know what their ability to pay willingness to pay is, we also have the ability to pull credit right on our side.

And then Increasingly, our lenders are now hosting their decisioning with MoneyLion, as well, right? So the consumers getting a, they’re going really deep into the funnel with with an approval, right? So they, they they want to go through this process, because we’re now able to say, hey, here’s a credit card that’s been fully approved for you, you don’t have to do any, no more checks are needed for you to get this credit card. Same thing with a personal loan. So you know, MoneyLion is a supplier, that as a percentage of the total revenue pool is increasing. And that’s what tells us that the between that and the total increase that we’re seeing, I think we’re getting a lot of proof points that this is on the right track.

The other thing I would say is, the only thing I would say is if you look at how much we spent on marketing in 2021, versus what we spent in 2023, it’s about half. Right. So that’s been one of the big drivers for our path to profitability, positive adjusted EBIT. And, you know, what I would say is, our adjusted EBITDA number is pretty close to cashflow. Our adjustments are the main adjustments that we do to that is stock based comp at some point, you know, in our evolution because of the way we went public and you know, we were effectively a Series C, the company that stock based compensation comes down over time, so are just a deep hidden number. I know that there’s been lots of memes and blogs and commentary on Twitter and X about adjusted EBITDA being an unclean number. But you know, we take a lot of pride that our adjusted EBITDA actually is very close to cashflow. So we know that’s been one of the big success stories of 2023 is because we’ve been able to use this flywheel to reduce your marketing expense. We’re now generating cash flow on a quarter by quarter basis.

Leadership opportunities and growth

I think it’s been night and day. In 2019, we were a venture backed business. And we’ve just done an $85 million Series C in 2019. And the world was different. It was a zero interest rate environment. The expectation was continued growing 100%, keep burning. Don’t worry about the burn. Then we did a $150 million Series D but it was really silly, right? Looking back, you know, it would work for one or two folks, but in financial services, whenever you have that type of growth, it creates a lot of issues as well. But we were trying to grow a fintech like a social media business, right? And oftentimes these fintechs were required to kind of grow your daily active users, your weekly active users, monthly active users at the same kind of benchmarks as, as a as a non kind of balance sheet consumer business. And in for a couple of years, we convinced ourselves that we were able to do that.

So we broke down the growth rate in 2020. 2020 was a really tough year in the beginning, lots of life lessons, lots of lessons in terms of, you know, who gets you to, from from point A to point B, and which team members get you from point B to point C. And it required a lot of hard decisions, right? You know, the team that we have today, maybe only 10% were here in 2019. Right. So it’s been kind of like a really changing of the team. 2020 was really interesting, because, of course, the pandemic had its own tailwinds. But as a, as a leader, I think that, you know, my personal journey has been, really, the maturity has come in just kind of like understanding this idea that you can’t control everything. There is there is a force, that’s the market that’s incredibly strong. And sometimes you just can’t fight the tape.

And 2022 was a really tough year, we were euphoric in 2021, the company had a massive valuation, when it went public, it was supported by some of the best investors through our pipe, some of the best tech investors in the pipe. And then we saw, you know, a massive correction in that valuation. And the other one point the stock was down 90% to 95%. So it kind of kind of went back to what I kept reading that Jeff Bezos letter that he had to his company in the early in the late 90s, I think, or maybe early 2000s. And he wrote that, you know, you know, our company is not the stock price. And he had a similar Amazon at one point, and also done the same thing at last 90% to 95% of its market cap.

And kind of just, you know, what got us through it was a maniacal obsession with mission. And people who leave MoneyLion to go to a hedge fund or go here. And they’re like, they come back and they say, like, you know, that maniacal, especially in the mission? Yeah, right, is what’s missing, they’re still they’re smart people everywhere. They’re good, smart people everywhere. But I think that when I call obsession with a mission, mission, you know, the mission is to rewire the financial system, right? The mission is that in the vision is for us to be able to give every American the right tools to to make the best financial decision. And, you know, the hardworking American, the teacher, the cop, the fireman, the gig economy worker, who don’t get tools that maybe you and I take for granted, the financial literacy, the education that you and I take for granted. And our ability to kind of put it all together when it works, it works so beautifully. That, you know, the people that work here, want to now do that on a much larger scale, right?

We got millions of users, I think it can be even bigger over time. And that’s what excites a lot of the great people that work here that I look out into the floor here, you know, we’ve got some of the best young product managers, engineers that are working 80 to 90 hours a week still, even as a public company, because they feel that this can be so much bigger than it is. And I think that if there’s one thing that we as a leadership team have been able to do is we’ve been able to preserve this idea, that MoneyLion at one point, if done correctly, can be in the hands of 80 to 90 million Americans. And that kind of big scale, as an engineer, and as a product manager allows you to kind of sometimes forget what’s happening in, you know, the sort of the stock market, because it’s always better to multiply your options buy a larger number than a lower number, right. So we’ve had our days another thing at one point, the market cap had fallen below $100 million. Right? And that, that creates lots of questions. You gotta you know, answer your family, you got to answer your friends. You know, every conversation is like, oh, no, hang in there. Thanks. We will.

But if I was getting that, I knew that my employees were getting the exact same questions. You know, what do we take the company public everything is every day you get a report card at 4:30pm. The queues in case all your all the things as a private company that you’re able to kind of do in the boardroom or do kind of privately now has to be disclosed to public shareholders.

Right. And, you know, the public markets react very differently. They sell the news, and then they figure out if what’s right and what’s wrong, and then you know, you have to recover from that. But again, it’s just kind of owning your destiny. The business model is working so we’re able to generate cash flow, and that’s what’s helped us kind of recover over the last six to nine months. I just kind of that’s been, it’s been good to see that. And we’re we’re nowhere near where we need to be. But we needed to see this proof point, just so those young engineers and product managers and Yeah, well, they they see that they’re doing something right, they see the missions worth fighting for, right. And so so my role has moved from being much more tactical and execution oriented, of course, you have to do too much more focused on distribution, strategy and morale, kind of like the vision and the mission. And I think that’s really what gets companies like this through a pretty existential period, a couple of years where we had, we had a lot more questions to answer than we then we had no answers for, right. So yeah, and I think that’s really working at this point.

Looking out into customers’ future

I think the future is a lot with what’s happening in the AI world right now. Right? I mean, the bank account transaction data, so the priors are in place, they belong to the consumer, the consumer can passport, what’s happening in their credit card account, their investment account, their bank account, anywhere they want, right? So I think what you’ll see us really have pioneer is our search capability. So AI driven search across all of your financial institutions that you can talk to MoneyLion very soon and say, Hey, what, what happened this day, last year, this day, two years ago? Simple things, of course, like PFM, things like where do I spend where my subscriptions?

But more importantly, what should I do next? Right. No one’s really been able to tell that. Yeah, that’s the Holy Grail. Because because we have the entire offer catalog. Now from the from the market, we know where rates are on a personal loan, we know what rates are on a CD on an insurance quote, we know what the consumers credit score is, we know, you know how much they can pay every month for all their financial products. So how MoneyLion’s ability to actually offer at scale, consumers the right financial basket, I think we’re probably further ahead on that than most because we have the consumer in the marketplace. We’re sitting side by side.

And you know, I think the others that that if we do that, right, that in itself, simple as it may sound is a pretty unique offering, especially if done at scale with the right explanation with the right wrappers around it with the right context, personalization that we have through our media business, the capabilities that we have to remediate the media business really changed the game for the 80 to 90 million Americans that self identify struggling with finances, right.

So, you know, these capabilities will always exist for the top one to 5% of the society. Right. But can we get this demystification further down, where, you know, the risk premium that Americans are paying and it just acts as a bank account or just access? You know, you know, more expensive products? You know, I think we can help there. I think that’s really the future of finance.